I’ve been trying to figure out why video games consistently fail at adapting mental illness, at least the ones that I’ve played. We all agree (or at least, most sane people agree) that games are a form of high art capable of tackling mature themes, and indeed the plethora of judicious titles out there more than prove that point. But when it comes to psychological ailments, they stumble and trip: at best you’re hit with overly-sentimental fluff, at worst you get something downright idiotic. It can’t be because the creators themselves don’t know what they’re talking about, as many of them have been open about their own struggles, so what is it?

I think it has to do with a number of dilemmas, the most obvious being the lack of a one-size-fits-all banner; even something as seemingly generic as depression can vary DRASTICALLY from person-to-person in terms of causes, manifestations, triggers, diagnoses, etc….The second is the gameplay question, or how you have the player engage with this metaphysical problem in a manner that isn’t pretentious or offensive. As just stated, it’s hard enough to characterize clinical disorders in a way that makes them tangentially relatable to multiple individuals, but even if you find that magic formula, the task of further turning that into a fun interactable medium is a whole other can of worms. If gamers aren’t entertained, it won’t matter how deep your storytelling is; and if your narrative is surface-level worthy, it won’t matter how intricate the gameplay is.

Third, and arguably most important, is the portrayal: how exactly do you show someone struggling with what is effectively cognitive cancer? Well, the answer tends to be anthropomorphizing the negative thoughts into an actual persona as that allows creators to visualize the constant negative voice many dysthymic individuals have in their heads, and that approach is what was taken by Matt Makes Games (since renamed Maddy Makes Games) for their secondary outing Celeste. A member of the difficult platformer genre, Celeste focuses on a young woman attempting to climb the titular mountain for reasons she herself is not sure of. The only issue is she’s being hampered by several obstacles generated by the Alp, the worst a malevolent doppelganger who seems eternally pessimistic. As you can probably guess, both these facets are metaphorical in scope: the mountain is the protagonist’s (Madeline’s+) mental hurdles, the dark mirror (Badeline) a compilation of her complexes, and a quick look over this schema reveals the first qualm with it: it’s ridiculously tame. While tis true that depression kills motivation, that is hardly its worst aspect- ruined relationships, serious health problems, and utter misery are just some of the anguishes you can get from chronic melancholy, yet in Celeste, Madeline’s odyssey is akin to one of those sports movies wherein the hero only has to look within themself to triumph against a stronger adversary. It’s very cookie-cutter and does an injustice to its real-life counterpart: the conversations between the twins simmer down to a toxic sibling relationship in place of the jackhammer that is feelings of inferiority. I’m honestly not surprised to learn the game got an E10 rating considering none of the dialogue approaches the kind of in-depth storytelling a topic such as mental illness necessitated. Worse still are the moments of levity wherein Madeline will either engage in playful banter with her clone (you know, the entity meant to represent her debilitating anxiety), or converse with a fellow backpacker named Theo (who’s whole characterization is taking selfies because MILLENNIALS!).

Now I know there will be counterarguments saying I was reading too much into the premise and that it was never meant to be that introspective, and maybe this is true (I only skimmed over the Wikipedia page after all), but even on the lower tiers of self-improvement I don’t think the game succeeded. It rehashes the same cliche advice you’ve been given a thousand times over since childhood: embrace your fears; don’t be scared to show emotion; if at first you don’t succeed, try try again. Don’t get me wrong, such wisdom is well-intentioned, it’s just utterly banal at this point in time. Kids, teens, and adults all know the right steps forward; if things were that easy to follow, everyone would be constantly optimistic. It unfortunately doesn’t fly in this day-and-age where advances in neurochemistry disclose complications in the central processing organ that originates these thoughts, and to act like clinical disorders can be powered through via sheer willpower is quite silly.

I also had an issue with the bluffs themselves. If they’re meant to be an allegory, how exactly are the other inhabitants there? Madeline arrives the same way we all do in a dream, seemingly manifesting without a beginning, yet Theo and co. claim to have either come from elsewhere or been long-term residents. They’re evidently not figments of the heroine’s imagination, so what is this reality we’re in? How does Madeline seem to conveniently stumble upon them when she’s consistently ascending? I know it appears dumb to harp on what is effectively a framing device, but when you’re imbibing a fantasy atmosphere you have to make your rules clear, otherwise the world gets less investable. And you guys need to understand these conversations Madeline has with those characters, while occasionally optional, are where the bulk of the themes lie, meaning they needed all the help they could get from the surrounding ambience, especially when you consider the game lacks voice acting. Yes, that’s right, Celeste is another pure-text scrawl, and while I did have problems with the script, there’s no denying a talented performer could’ve imbued the lines with vigorous pathos. Alas, that wasn’t to be, and worse yet, what you get in-place are an atrocious series of dins meant to mimic varying emotes. Do you guys remember how, in the Charlie Brown cartoons, Vince Guaraldi would render adult vocals with a muted trombone? Yeah, imagine that cranked up to cacophonous levels and you get the babbling in Celeste. It’s absolutely annoying.

Thankfully, the rest of the SFX is more up-to-par. As a platformer, you’re going to do your typical activities of jumping, rebounding, token collecting, door unlocking, etc…and all have that crisp arcade-y din that never gets old to hear. You even have some nice subtle additions, like echoes in caves, muffled tones while submerged, and differentiated thudding based on surface material.

The score is mostly fantastic as well, with composer Lena Raine adjusting her music to fit not only the level layout, but the required scenic tone (being chased, resolving a dilemma, exploring, and so forth). You’re going to be spending a lot of time redoing areas, and it significantly helps one’s patience to not have aggravating tunes looping ad nauseam. That said, I did use the term “mostly” because there were a couple of compositions (particularly early on) that leaned too heavily into that outdated, screechy noise you always heard in 8-bit video games, which doesn’t work despite Celeste visually resembling one of those titles.

Yeah, all cards on the table, I wasn’t a big fan of the graphics. There were a lot of nice touches that certainly raise Celeste above vanilla releases from the third generation, such as the frenzied motion of background objects, presence of floating motes, scuff clouds from Madeline’s feet, sweat beads, colored torch lighting, and the mobility of hair. But the baseline aesthetic just looks a bit antiquated in a non-homage kind of way, with extra facets coming across as two steps backwards, like the complete absence of faces, prevalence of pudgy hands, and the fact that the backdrops of every stage look like a library of retinted assets from RPG Maker. Seriously, I was genuinely surprised to learn this game was built in XNA given how rehashed the aesthetics are, and I’m not referring to things like terrain blocks (that were of course going to be replicated) but the numerous furnishings. You’re going to see the same exact bookcases, crystals, vines, statues, flags, and so forth from place-to-place, and no matter the flair the developers slap on the whole enterprise, it can’t help but remove some of the uniqueness from the world. Combine this with the fact that you’re going to be in these vistas for elongated periods of time courtesy of the resurrections, and you can see how such aesthetics get tiring.

On the topic of resurrections, let’s talk about the gameplay, which is of course the main appeal of any platformer. Like I said before, Celeste is a difficult platformer, and while it isn’t in the same ballpark as say They Bleed Pixels, it is still a title that lives and dies by, well, living and dying. Levels are built around strategically leaping and boosting about pillars courtesy of a speed burst, with later parts adding new gimmicks like momentum bubbles, wind gliding, and discount Thwomps, and the only method of overcoming everything is through the tried and true trial-and-error tactic of perishing and rejuvenating. This is a game that really wanted to embody overcoming stress in all aspects of its being, and the craftsmanship is superb. Save points click upon entering a new frame, and combined with the quick reload times, you can expect your death toll to easily rise into the 100s without notice (which the game gleefully tells you at the end).

The biggest issues I had with Celeste were two-fold: first, its platforming is only cued to the eight cardinal directions of N, S, E, W + diagonals. That’s fine and dandy, but the problem is, if you’re playing with a controller (like I was) the game often doesn’t register which angle you’re aiming at unless you push the joystick extensively that way, which you can’t really be thinking about as you go through the motions. The 360 degree nature of a joystick means there is a lot of room for error, and I feel the developers should’ve accounted for that when implementing gamepad support.

The second is the open-ended nature of certain sections, where you aren’t given a clear pathway forward. This obviously works for players who wish to indulge in the game’s side content of strawberry collecting (more on that below), but those wanting to simply push onwards to the finish line may get stuck wasting time on tasks they did not actually need to do.

There is plenty of content at your fingertips: strawberries, as said above, are often located in specific crevices that require even more precise maneuvering to acquire; an actual 8-bit version of the game (created for PICO-8) is playable to complete (though keep in mind it doesn’t save your progress as I learned the hard way). Alongside that, every stage has a findable “B-side” that allows you to play through an alternate, harder version of it, and if that wasn’t enough, select chapters have special objects that, when acquired, unlock an eighth area set after the events of the main game (much like the Krem Koins in DKC2). I personally didn’t indulge much in either, however, fans will no doubt cherish the bonuses.

In the end, Celeste faltered because it wastes a lot of time on a narrative that, in my opinion, failed to live up to its potential. Combine that with overly-simple visuals and standard platforming fare and you get an okay game that’ll no doubt appeal to a certain sect of the gaming populace.

Notes
+Madeline can be renamed, however, as she is definitively not an avatar, the option is ultimately pointless on the part of the devs.

++Much has been made about Madeline being transgender, and while I’ve always been an advocate for more representation, I felt this didn't add anything to the game as her gender identity is barely hinted at. It’s a lot like when Simon Pegg and co. retroactively made Sulu gay in Star Trek Beyond, though even there they at least threw in one scene indicating as such. That said, numerous commentators have indicated that the free DLC (the unlockable secret world) is more explicit with Madeline's transidentity, and as a cisgender man, I know I have unintentional biases and will never be intrinsically knowledgeable of a transperson's experiences. So take it all with a grain of salt.

+++Wasn’t able to fit this into the main review, but gotta be honest- I did not like any of the side characters. Theo is barely tolerable, Mr. Oshiro pathetic, and the old lady strangleable.

Reviewed on Feb 12, 2023


32 Comments


1 year ago

"It unfortunately doesn’t fly in this day-and-age where advances in neurochemistry disclose complications in the central processing organ that originates these thoughts, and to act like clinical disorders can be powered through via sheer willpower is quite silly." No it's not silly, postfreudian psychoanalysis doesn't need medications to work

1 year ago

Lol what, can't tell if you're joking or being serious. If joking, that was pretty good.

10 months ago

Although the discussion on depression and game design can be interesting, the sheer disdain of the notes is baffling. I don't know what it says about you to ultimately compare a trans woman trying to discover herself during game development and J. K. Rowling.

10 months ago

@Cadensia I think you missed my point. You wouldn't have known Madeline was trans unless told by the creator in the same way that you wouldn't have known Dumbledore was gay without Rowling's notes. I guess it's not entirely pointless since an LGBT person could be happy that there is a trans character (I'll amend the review accordingly), but if it's not a part of her personality or the story, then it's basically a Chekov's Gun archetype. I reviewed another game much later called Tell Me Why that incorporated transgenderism into its plot and protagonist if you want an example of what I mean. Heck, AC Syndicate did a better job with bisexuality than Celeste did with transgenderism.

10 months ago

theres subtext given how much focus there is on mirrors (out of which badeline comes) and that i dont think the game ever actually declares that it's about depression solely (despite how much of this review seems to be docking points because the game doesnt acknowledge you should get meds for depression?). its more comparable to the matrix given that was also made by trans women who talked about it post-release (which people eye-rollingly also tried to compare to the jk rowling dumbledore thing)

10 months ago

Transidentity is a key part of Tell Me Why and well, it's just not in Celeste? I'm just surprised that you are willing to dunk on an element that emerged in a impromptu manner during the DLC development and are treating that as Rowling's odious representation choices – with all the political context that we know. Maybe you are not aware of that article by Thorson – maybe you don't care –, but it just comes as excessively insensitive or worse, compared to the care you obviously put in your depression discussion. Even your comment using the term 'transgenderism', hopefully unaware of the connotation, feels incredibly hurtful.

10 months ago

@turdl3 Lol, if mirrors are the best you can come up with to explain the connections to Madeline's transidentity, then I rest my case that it was poorly implemented and thematically indifferent from token representation. Obviously the Rowling comparison is causing you to view this as derogatory due to Rowling's transphobia (not my intention of course), so if you want another apt metaphor, then compare it to making Sulu gay in Star Trek Beyond. Hopefully that should convey what I mean.

You also clearly need to re-read my review because not only do I NOT say the game should've been advocating medication solutions for mental illness, but I also explicitly state and I quote:

"Now I know there will be counterarguments saying I was reading too much into the premise and that it was never meant to be that introspective, and maybe this is true (I only skimmed over the Wikipedia page after all), but even on the lower tiers of self-improvement I don’t think the game succeeded."

10 months ago

@cadensia Dunking? If one part of one sentence in a 2000+ word review = dunking, then I would love to know what word you would use to describe an entire essay of vitriol. Also, I wasn't even dunking, I was saying it was meritless because it plays no part in the story.

Miss, you are looking too much into the Rowling comparison. I know she's transphobic- the metaphor was explicitly referring to her token representation post-Harry Potter, not her contemporary bigotry. As I said to another guy, replace Dumbledore with Sulu from Star Trek Beyond and you'll see what I mean.

That was an interesting read, but if anything it literally supports my point. I quote the following from the text: "That yes, maybe she was trans, but that it really wasn’t any of ours or the player’s business. She is a woman, a human being, and that’s all we need to know until she decides that she wants to tell us more. She didn’t strike us as a person who would publicly identify as trans, certainly not before the events of the main game."

Aka, it doesn't have any bearing on the game and is consequently redundant from an outsider's perspective. At least a cis-outsider's perspective. If members of the trans community find more to interpret/glean from this aspect of Celeste, then hey, more power to them. The great thing about fiction is that it different people will ultimately take something different from it. This review is reflective of my opinion and depicts it as such, your review (if you have one) is reflective of yours and depicts it as such.

Also, I didn't realize transgenderism had a negative connotation to it, so I apologize. Will refrain from it in future discourses.

10 months ago

You're misunderstanding a key element in your comparison: JK Rowling is not a gay man. To compare the development of Madeline's and Dumbledore's identity just on the hypothesis of them being comparable on grounds of being post-hoc revelations (per se). JK Rowling didn't make the decision on Dumbledore being gay through her own identity, Maddie did. To compare them shallowly is omitting this detail which gives actual context to their respective decisions.

Also why does her identity have to "add" anything to the game? Is looking back on Celeste with this information not re-contextualizing the metaphors (be it as basic as they may be)? Why do you consider it to be information outside the text despite it being in the game explicitly in form of the Farewell chapter?

FTR I do agree with Celeste's representation of depression to be v. basic and it's a point I've come to agree with as more time has passed, which is why I don't regard the game as high as some others do when it comes to the narrative, I mostly just really enjoyed the gameplay

10 months ago

@FranzMagitek I don't subscribe to the belief that you have to bear the identity of the group you're trying to represent. We've seen cross-identity appropriation between individuals, and it's lead to powerful stories being scripted. For example, Kurt Cobain's helplessness as a child seeing his mother get abused fueled the energy behind Nirvana's R*pe Me. None of the people involved in Brokeback Mountain were LGBT, but certainly Ang Lee's experiences as a minority aided in his telling of that story.

It's also irrelevant to me how the decision came to be- I'm not reviewing the production process, I'm reviewing the finished product. Good intentions, while admirable, do not equate to on-screen results.

I didn't say it just had to add anything. I said it either had to add something OR be depicted in a more explicit way, no matter how lite. I understand representation does kinda suck for LGBT as, because gender identity isn't really visible the way skin color or ethnicity is. My problem is Celeste doesn't even try to depict it in any small way outside of interpreting certain features, which themselves are privy to multiple interpretations.

At least that was the case in the base game. To be honest, I have not played Farewell and don't plan on doing so because, from what I understand, it requires you to collect all those hearts AND complete the B-side to unlock? Yeah, I sucked too much at the main game for that to be feasible haha. If it was more open in Farewell, then I'll amend my review accordingly as it is purely reflecting my experience with the vanilla game.

I'm glad we agree on the depression aspect at least. Good discussion!

10 months ago

"Lol, if mirrors are the best you can come up with to explain the connections to Madeline's transidentity, then I rest my case that it was poorly implemented and thematically indifferent from token representation."

it's subtext. i do not expect you to get it because you are not part of the group being represented, and that's ok. but please stop trying to be an arbiter of what is and isnt token representation

10 months ago

Your criticism about depression representation is not 'dunking' for me, as it felt justified and supported by several elements. I've written my fair share of scathing reviews and yours are generally fine to read. However, the gratuitous comparison between a TERF and a trans woman developer is shocking to me. Madeline's portrayal was, from the words of Thorson, an avatar for her and she became convinced that Madeline was trans afterwards by seeing how painfully similar was their doubts. It led to the search of the 'best way' to convey that identity in the DLC.

Your opinion of it being superfluous is fine – although it's literally two flags in the ending scene that some people missed on release. As @FranzMagitek points out, it misses the context around the Dumbledore discourse, especially after his depiction in Fantastic Beasts, rooted in the characteristic homophobia of Rowling's right-winged circles. As such, whether you intended it or not, you are equating Rowling's reactionary stance with Thorson's way of dealing with her dysphoria. And, as you said, from your 'cis-outsider's perspective', it comes as an incredibly centrist and hurtful take.

I don't agree much with the main body of your review, but I can get behind your reseasoning, as it shows consideration for some complex issues behind depression and mental disorders. For the bottom part, it feels like a gratuitous jab against the Thorson and every trans person that felt a connection with Madeline and was able to pursue their transition thanks to her. Following FranzMagitek's question, I believe there's indeed no need for her transidentity to have any bearing on the story – as, again, it's never put in the spotlight. I also read your Tell Me Why review and that should put Celeste in your 'Phase 4' for LGBT representation. Nonetheless, it becomes almost a fault here and your position quite hypocritical.

Yes, fiction is altered by reception, that's the rule of art. But your first comparison was with Rowling, with all the implicit innuendos – as her 'contemporary bigotry' didn't begin in the 2010s, but was always an inherent part of her fiction. Again, whether intended or not, it is just hurtful, as if talking about LGBT representation was just a game, just another bullet point to clear in a review. Your words intended at the game don't just hurt it.

10 months ago

@turdl3 Diminishing my opinion simply because I'm not a member of the LGBT community is disrespectful, especially when it's clear I was trying to advocate for greater representation for said community. Should I diminish a transperson's review of a cisgender story simply because they aren't cis? No, because that would be silly.

I'm not trying to be an arbiter, I'm simply justifying MY OPINION of what token representation is. Here's a thought experiment- let's say there's a transperson out there who agrees wholeheartedly with my take on Madeline's identity. Are you going to say they have a point? If so, you are a hypocrite. Morality and advocacy should be consistent if we are ever going to get any progress done.

10 months ago

I am not attempting to imbue you in a belief that people can't write about things that are not part of their own identity. The point was not that JK Rowling is not gay and therefore cannot write gay characters. The point is that the comparison between Rowling and Thorson is an unfair one as it is made in a vaccuum and does not contemplate the difference in context between those two, which is what I tried to get at in my comment: JK Rowling's writing of Dumbledore is not a reflection of her own identity and the struggles with it, Maddie's IS. If you want to argue that the context behind Madeline's identity not being explicitly shown in the base game is insufficient and therefore leads to a lot of reaches to find it there, that's your point to make. What I'm saying is that your comparison is unjust and fails to take into account particularities and only relies on the point of "both writers made their characters something that's not in the text afterwards", disregarding why they're not contemplated as the same

10 months ago

Why are you playing a 2D platformer with an analogue stick? Especially one that excepts digital inputs, as demonstrated by it only accepting eight directions?

Nobody is suggesting you can't have an opinion on the representation, but without that lived experience as a trans person, the subtleties of why Madeline is effective representation cannot be wholly understood. Nobody expects you to understand it in the same way a trans person does, but people do expect you to listen to that lived experience rather than shoot it down simply because you don't understand it. If your opinion should be heard on this, so too should the opinion of those being represented.

10 months ago

detchibe worded whatever i wouldve said more concisely so ill leave out that part

i think it's a bit tenuous to try and call me a hypocrite through some hypothetical framing in which someone agrees with you. regardless, i doubt said hypothetical trans person would go on to compare it to token representation and sleight it for not being more overt with its themes. thatd be weirdly insensitive towards others in their in-group, given that the dev has gone on record to say she made this game while processing those feelings, and that it's clearly resonated with a lot of others also part of that group. but sure, even if they did wholeheartedly agree, they would still be speaking from a fundamentally different position. would you feel like you could talk about media written by black people on whether it could've had "greater representation"? or any other [insert minority group]? why is this any different?

i also fundamentally disagree that progress will be done when trans-related media appeases cis people enough, with how it represents trans people

10 months ago

I'll be a bit more blunt and that will be my final comment here, as I won't read anymore of this. Among others, you wrote a footnote about Madeline's transidentity without having touched the DLC based; without any prior research on how Thorson was forced to come out due to the controversy; while that said controversy is today fuelled by transphobic people; you used Thorson's deadname in your review. So I don't know, perhaps some trans people, right now, are just hurt by your footnote and your willingness to die on this hill?

To the others, sorry to have even unearthed that and thank you.

10 months ago

@Cadensia As I told the other individual, it is irrelevant to me how the decision came to be- I'm not reviewing the production process, I'm reviewing the finished product. Good intentions, while admirable, do not equate to on-screen results. The vanilla game's depiction is probably different from the DLC.

I recognize how the Rowling comparison was tone deaf and will substitute it accordingly. But I stand behind its inherent purpose.

Not only are you speaking for others, but more importantly you are putting words in my mouth that were blatantly not intended. If someone is interpreting a small comment as a jab against transpeople who identify with the Madeline, then that is on them and the very definition of a strawman. I'm not going to apologize for (the few) individuals who would make such a silly assertion, especially when I have been nothing but empathetic towards disenfranchised groups in all of my reviews (as well as my life in general).

I appreciate you taking the time to read that review, but your conclusion is incorrect as my point is Madeline is inherently indistinguishable from a Phase 1 representation. And like I told another person, I understand it's inherently harder to represent transgender people because they do not have visible identifying characteristics like races and ethnicities. But such challenges are known beforehand and it's up to the storyteller to see them through to fruition. Obviously Celeste worked for you and I respect that, but as this is my review, I am going to elucidate my opinion which is that it did not work. There was a transgender character in AC Syndicate that literally no one knew until after release when the writer said so. If you are unable to distinguish someone, that is indifferent from such a character being in the work.

Lol what? Of course talking about representation in a game is a point to be addressed when it's become a core part of its identity in the community. It's not my fault the game did nothing with its representation to warrant more than a single sentence- if they had, it would have received the same depth as my Tell Me Why review.

10 months ago

@Cadensia You are literally the only person who was "hurt" by a review written by a wannabe critic on a blog site. That said, I did not realize the company had changed names- Matt Makes Games was what the game was published under and was used as such. I will edit the review accordingly to account for this.

10 months ago

@FranzMagitek And as I am trying to tell you, intentions do not equate to on-screen results. While I am very happy for Maddy Thorson's personal journey, the vanilla release of Celeste did not do enough with the material to warrant it being a strong example of trans representation IMHO.

I recognize now that the Rowling comparison was tone deaf and have amended it accordingly with Star Trek Beyond's retconning of Sulu. But it does not matter to me the motivations/reasons of how each side came to be, because I am purely talking about the END RESULT, which I find to be indifferent. This is not court where intent plays a part in the verdict; this is a review of a piece of high art- the result is all that matters.

10 months ago

@Detchibe Because controllers are more comfortable, the game offers controller support, and I've played numerous other 2D platformers with a controller?

Saying someone has a more authentic opinion purely because of their identity is not only elitist, but completely disrespectful to all communities. You are homogenizing individuals purely on a singular facet of their personhood. That is the definition of stereotyping and the reason why we don't have progress in society. Each transperson's personal experiences vary significantly based on their upbringing, socioeconomic status, and level of local tolerance, and while they will always have some shared understanding, the human core is fundamentally different.

A poor black man has more in common with a poor white man than a rich black man. A closeted homosexual has more in common with an illegal immigrant than a proud gay man. And I guarantee you I have more in common with Madeline than Caitlyn Jenner.

I am not putting my experiences above that of others. This is my review and I am merely exhibiting where my thoughts came from. That said, I will amend my review to better illustrate my biases.

10 months ago

No one said anything about controllers in general, ya dork. It's about using analogue sticks when those are clearly not ideal. And considering your controller guaranteed has an D-Pad as well, this isn't an elitism thing, this is a "you are being disingenuous" thing.

And why do you, as a cis man, think your opinion on trans topics is more worthy of mention than the understandable criticism thrown at you by trans and nonbinary players of this game? And I hate to break it to you, some trans experiences are more universal than you think, lol. shows your lack of knowledge on this~

anyway, hard not to read this whole thing as misguided, unwilling to question your own conceptions, all that shit. lol, lmao even, etc.

10 months ago

@turdl3 Hypotheticals are the only way to glean moral consistency in individuals- they're the core juncture of philosophical debates, so I disagree, they are definitely fair game.

At least you're honest about being a hypocrite, I respect that. And considering Thorson sculpted out an entire subsection of her essay addressing transindividuals who would possibly be angry at Madeline not being more overt in her identity, I would say you're wrong.

It's amazing how much you have to strawman me- point out where I said I have a better understanding of trans experiences than a transperson?

10 months ago

@Squigglydot Yeah, I'm not gonna bother responding to someone who signs off with "all that shit. lol, lmao even, etc."

10 months ago

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10 months ago

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10 months ago

I'm saying to play with the d-pad you goofy goose.

Anyways, I'd like to thank you for demonstrating with aplomb that cis white men are simply unable to admit they might not be able to speak truthfully on everything that is not relevant to themselves. Enjoy telling your friends you owned the tr@@ns and they had to resort to logical fallacies because you were owning us with facts and logic about how you're right. Definitely don't just take the L, stop arguing, and just take a step back and say "oh okay".

10 months ago

@Detchibe The funny thing is your assumptions about my race and orientation are incorrect. But nice to know stereotyping is used by all communities when their strawmen tumble. Another reason we're all equal :)

10 months ago

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