Bleh. This is the most bleh crpg I've bothered to finish. Crazy production values it might have, but to what end?
The implementation of 5th edition here is slow and clunky, and incredibly unforgiving, even on the lowest difficulty. Sure, it's tactically interesting, but combat takes forever and is filled with tons of tiny little annoyances, and honestly far too swingy for a modern AAA game. Even Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil, which sports a very similar combat system (though it's 3.5 instead of 5) feels faster, though it suffers from many of the same issues regarding clunk. Even rolling skills in dialogue is slow as hell, even when you skip the main part of the animation it's just leagues slower than any other game I've played. The dice rolling animation is cute the first time but my god does it drag on the 500th time.
One thing ToEE didn't suffer from that this does, though, is camera issues! The camera's kinda goofy. When you zoom in, it tries to pull behind your character a bit (or just provide a cinematic viewpoint), but when you zoom out it angles flatter, to be a tactical camera. It only zooms out so far though, and just loves to get stuck on the multileveled terrain battlefields, which are a good idea in concept but really just feel annoying, partially because of this camera.
The world is beautifully realized, but feels a bit off, at least from my idea of the forgotten realms. It's been Larianized, I guess? No matter how serious things got, there was just this undercurrent of lightheartedness. Not as bad as their other games, but still not great. The maps don't really draw you in any direction, which made my pass through the underdark feel pretty aimless. It's got a bit of that quest-marker driven map design in it, I guess.
Finally, the story is interesting. Not as a narrative, it's pretty weak, but as an exercise in making a story that adapts to your players. That's the real strength here, right? The game lets you take many different paths through the story, and even story-critical moments are wildly variable. That's a lot of work to build, and it worked out, but not really to the benefit of the story. Player agency is crazy high, but as such the story feels meaningless, just a set of events you go through. The companion stories are a bit better, their issue is kind of a Marvelly quippy writing style (though again, less so than previous games of Larian's).
I've probably been a bit over-mean in this review, so lemme list some things I liked: Being able to go into turn based mode at any time, following multiple sidequest threads in Baldur's Gate (the city), the Gauntlet of Shar dungeon (minus the trials), most of the story beats around ketheric thorm. It's a well made game, it's just horribly uneven and imo hampered by some large issues
It just felt like an exercise in recreating the experience of playing 5e at the table, with a little bit less math and a story that, while free, still can't match the adaptability of a GM or something. It's a frustrating, often unbalanced game, and although it occasionally falls into stride (the city of baldur's gate was fun, though not really well split up) I finished the game glad it was over, with the feeling that nothing here really meant anything, no matter how pretty it looked or free it felt.
Just play fucking 5e
The implementation of 5th edition here is slow and clunky, and incredibly unforgiving, even on the lowest difficulty. Sure, it's tactically interesting, but combat takes forever and is filled with tons of tiny little annoyances, and honestly far too swingy for a modern AAA game. Even Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil, which sports a very similar combat system (though it's 3.5 instead of 5) feels faster, though it suffers from many of the same issues regarding clunk. Even rolling skills in dialogue is slow as hell, even when you skip the main part of the animation it's just leagues slower than any other game I've played. The dice rolling animation is cute the first time but my god does it drag on the 500th time.
One thing ToEE didn't suffer from that this does, though, is camera issues! The camera's kinda goofy. When you zoom in, it tries to pull behind your character a bit (or just provide a cinematic viewpoint), but when you zoom out it angles flatter, to be a tactical camera. It only zooms out so far though, and just loves to get stuck on the multileveled terrain battlefields, which are a good idea in concept but really just feel annoying, partially because of this camera.
The world is beautifully realized, but feels a bit off, at least from my idea of the forgotten realms. It's been Larianized, I guess? No matter how serious things got, there was just this undercurrent of lightheartedness. Not as bad as their other games, but still not great. The maps don't really draw you in any direction, which made my pass through the underdark feel pretty aimless. It's got a bit of that quest-marker driven map design in it, I guess.
Finally, the story is interesting. Not as a narrative, it's pretty weak, but as an exercise in making a story that adapts to your players. That's the real strength here, right? The game lets you take many different paths through the story, and even story-critical moments are wildly variable. That's a lot of work to build, and it worked out, but not really to the benefit of the story. Player agency is crazy high, but as such the story feels meaningless, just a set of events you go through. The companion stories are a bit better, their issue is kind of a Marvelly quippy writing style (though again, less so than previous games of Larian's).
I've probably been a bit over-mean in this review, so lemme list some things I liked: Being able to go into turn based mode at any time, following multiple sidequest threads in Baldur's Gate (the city), the Gauntlet of Shar dungeon (minus the trials), most of the story beats around ketheric thorm. It's a well made game, it's just horribly uneven and imo hampered by some large issues
It just felt like an exercise in recreating the experience of playing 5e at the table, with a little bit less math and a story that, while free, still can't match the adaptability of a GM or something. It's a frustrating, often unbalanced game, and although it occasionally falls into stride (the city of baldur's gate was fun, though not really well split up) I finished the game glad it was over, with the feeling that nothing here really meant anything, no matter how pretty it looked or free it felt.
Just play fucking 5e
9 Comments
Good review. I think you probably didn't do yourself any favors by comparing it with the actual 5e, obviously, it naturally draws the comparisons by using 5e, but a video game will never be a TTRPG. It just can't be, and could never live up to the freedom that playing a made-up game in your head controlled by a DM can afford. I think they did a pretty good job of porting the system into the style of a video game, it can be a little slow and clunky at times but I think that just applies to actual 5e as well tbh. For me at least, compared to normal 5e, what it lost in freedom it made up for in streamlining. Mainly in combat. Overall, as a massive DnD nerd, I've still had a ton of fun with it and found it a mostly faithful use of the system. But interesting thoughts overall and I can see how you would come to those conclusions.
@SlayerSaint My thing is, I think the closeness to 5e puts it in a weird spot, where I find it not as free as an actual TTRPG ofc, but imo it doesn't feel nearly as good as a purpose-built system, or even games that take greater liberties with their D&D-based heritage like KOTOR.
It, in much the same way as BG1, is attempting to conjure the experience of a tabletop session of it's chosen edition of D&D, like that's the point of the dice roll animations and stuff. I just don't think the kind of player-empowering design that 5e play typically is built around shines very well in a video game, on account of just not being as flexible and forgiving as a DM. BG1 has a much easier time adapting a hexcrawl style of play, where there's not a crazy amount of player agency to account for. Plus 2e is vastly simpler in combat, which keeps it from getting as bogged down in the weeds.
Typically though I think a stronger narrative with a more defined path works better in video games, since that allows you to build a story that'll stick a bit better, a more cohesive throughline, rather than trying to account for every way a player might try to do something
It, in much the same way as BG1, is attempting to conjure the experience of a tabletop session of it's chosen edition of D&D, like that's the point of the dice roll animations and stuff. I just don't think the kind of player-empowering design that 5e play typically is built around shines very well in a video game, on account of just not being as flexible and forgiving as a DM. BG1 has a much easier time adapting a hexcrawl style of play, where there's not a crazy amount of player agency to account for. Plus 2e is vastly simpler in combat, which keeps it from getting as bogged down in the weeds.
Typically though I think a stronger narrative with a more defined path works better in video games, since that allows you to build a story that'll stick a bit better, a more cohesive throughline, rather than trying to account for every way a player might try to do something
@crimson2877 That's all valid. Naturally, as a DnD vet, I've tried to test the limits of the game on many occasions and perhaps I had low expectations for how much player freedom they would be able to do in a video game, but I've actually been pleasantly surprised in how often BG3 has allowed me to break the game... without actually breaking the game. That said, there's definitely been several moments I've had what I think to be a clever idea, and something a DM (which is usually me, lol) would definitely allow me to do, but the game just won't let me. That can kinda feel constrictive and mildly annoying when you are used to playing DnD when using 5e normally. But on the flip side, 5e combat can be an incredible slog, especially with a less experienced group, whereas I actually enjoy the combat more in BG3 than I do in the actual TTRPG thanks to the incredible amount of time cut down by rolling behind the scenes
I agree with a lot of your thoughts, honestly, I think they seem to have bothered my enjoyment of the game less than in your case though, but I totally see where you're coming from. It's not often I nod along with an "it's okay" kind of review when it's about a game I've actually really enjoyed. To be completely honest, I'm only near the end of Act 2, so I still have more to go to see if this kind of grates on me more as I go along.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts, honestly, I think they seem to have bothered my enjoyment of the game less than in your case though, but I totally see where you're coming from. It's not often I nod along with an "it's okay" kind of review when it's about a game I've actually really enjoyed. To be completely honest, I'm only near the end of Act 2, so I still have more to go to see if this kind of grates on me more as I go along.
@SlayerSaint see, my secret is I actually don't love 5e that much for that exact reason, it's too sloggy, but while bg3 speeds it up, it's still got all the issues that cause 5e to be slow in practice, so I didn't find it all that fun :/ Glad you're likin the game (and the review) tho!
Hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad to have read an "against the grain" review for this game that actually feels like a genuine critique instead of immense contrarianism and/or nitpicks. I only played a few hours of DOS1, but I can certainly feel that animation issue with that game (I NEED to look up some mods to skip the RPS gimmick without undercutting my roleplaying potential) and have seen some of it in this one, which is a shame.
I'm not sure if I can see the quip stuff though. I have a friend going through it and I've seen their party banter screencaps, and I get the vibe that they're doing what Bioware did: obviously be inspired by Whedonism (would not be surprised if that was mentioned as an influence like Alistair was tbh) but balance it out with their dilemma taking precedent. Then again I've seen and heard similar issues for DOS1&2 so idk maybe i'm just really dumb.
I'm not sure if I can see the quip stuff though. I have a friend going through it and I've seen their party banter screencaps, and I get the vibe that they're doing what Bioware did: obviously be inspired by Whedonism (would not be surprised if that was mentioned as an influence like Alistair was tbh) but balance it out with their dilemma taking precedent. Then again I've seen and heard similar issues for DOS1&2 so idk maybe i'm just really dumb.
@BlazingWaters thanks! that's a good point about alistair in DAO, though i think it's a bit more widespread here. it's certainly less bad here than in either DOS game too, that's for sure. that being said, i think DAO's writing is just generally of a higher quality, being a bit more literary.
also i uh don't super love DAO either lmao
also i uh don't super love DAO either lmao
DAO's pretty damn good that I'm replaying it for the nth time, and wow each time I do it floors me how the worldstate is bleeding apart at the seems. You can really tell it was in the lab for 7 years in other aspects, but that's the more blatant side...
If you ever get the time, I really suggest looking up the dev history for it. It's tied with Mass Effect 1 for being the most intriguing process of Bioware titles, and there's so many lil picks in it that makes it super enlightening/indicative/vindicative towards the design aspect.
If you ever get the time, I really suggest looking up the dev history for it. It's tied with Mass Effect 1 for being the most intriguing process of Bioware titles, and there's so many lil picks in it that makes it super enlightening/indicative/vindicative towards the design aspect.
@BlazingWaters I'll look into it! DAO and ME1 are two games that I like a fair amount, but also mark the beginning of the games I like less from bioware (er well, I don't love nwn, though i'm giving it another try rn, and i haven't played jade empire). I'm not really sure why, either? Or rather, I'm not sure why I find KOTOR perfect but don't love what are basically its direct successors. Probably nostalgia (KOTOR is one of the first games I really loved as a kid that wasn't Pokemon). Anyways, I should probably replay ME1 and then look into those twin dev histories lol
_DC
6 months ago