games don't age
"aged poorly"
the above phrase is the ultimate buzzword to end all gaming-related buzzwords. technology is expendable and writing is subjective. game design itself, however, is timeless. and stating that a game has aged poorly is lazy, ignorant and disregards numerous factors
below is a list of arguments to showcase how silly this claim is and why you shouldn't ever assert it yourself
13 Games
an opening statement:
this was released in 1982 and it's still fun to play. it's probably not something you're going to spend hours on end with, but it's a fun time sink for a bit
that's the purpose it served on launch. that's the purpose it serves today. it's a fun and well-designed game
how can anything age more poorly than something that was invented near the conception of home video game consoles
this was released in 1982 and it's still fun to play. it's probably not something you're going to spend hours on end with, but it's a fun time sink for a bit
that's the purpose it served on launch. that's the purpose it serves today. it's a fun and well-designed game
how can anything age more poorly than something that was invented near the conception of home video game consoles
this game didn't age poorly because it's always sucked copious amounts of dick
double dragon predates this and plays about a million times better
double dragon predates this and plays about a million times better
"nintendo-hard" is a controversial descriptor. some people love it, some people hate it. regardless, detractors of these games should know that many of them were designed from the start to be money suckers
the reason you cannot beat battletoads (western version) is because the developers were dicks and didn't want anyone to finish the title in a rental period. that's it
the developers knew they were being assholes, which is why the japanese version of battletoads is much more fair
the reason you cannot beat battletoads (western version) is because the developers were dicks and didn't want anyone to finish the title in a rental period. that's it
the developers knew they were being assholes, which is why the japanese version of battletoads is much more fair
mario 64's camera control is not a product of flawed game design but rather a flawed controller. that being said, it works fine enough that nobody had any problems with it upon release
it is perfectly playable and manageable
it is perfectly playable and manageable
goldeneye is a well-designed first person shooter bound to the shittiest controller known to mankind. that said, it still works remarkably well for how horribly the odds are stacked against it
when emulated with a mouse+keyboard it plays better than most fps titles today
when emulated with a mouse+keyboard it plays better than most fps titles today
even games within a series that have arguable improvements don't invalidate their predecessors simply by existing. subjectivity is still at play
i personally don't enjoy the original thps as much as its sequels, but there's absolutely a case to be made about thps2/3 sacrificing simplicity and being less easy to pick up and play
this one was designed around not having manuals or reverts. it can still be played as originally intended just fine
i personally don't enjoy the original thps as much as its sequels, but there's absolutely a case to be made about thps2/3 sacrificing simplicity and being less easy to pick up and play
this one was designed around not having manuals or reverts. it can still be played as originally intended just fine
alice never played astoundingly well. it was always atmosphere over mechanics
many such games from this era especially. obvious flaws to an adult aren't as visibly apparent to a child
it didn't age poorly as a platformer because it wasn't particularly stellar on that front to begin with
many such games from this era especially. obvious flaws to an adult aren't as visibly apparent to a child
it didn't age poorly as a platformer because it wasn't particularly stellar on that front to begin with
you're free to prefer the fps controls if that floats your boat, but to say this game was designed for them is flat out wrong
the aiming control changes weren't needed. this was essentially ocarina of time in first person. the combat generally relies on strafing and attacking - not precision shooting
as a result i'd argue the fps controls are a forced attempt at modernization that dilute the original experience
the aiming control changes weren't needed. this was essentially ocarina of time in first person. the combat generally relies on strafing and attacking - not precision shooting
as a result i'd argue the fps controls are a forced attempt at modernization that dilute the original experience
one of the most apt choices for the argument that random encounters are outdated
it's common to see people disparaging nocturne for its ability to "spontaneously kill you for being unlucky", as opposed to smt iv, which places all of its enemy encounters visibly on the map
random encounters and map encounters are deliberate design choices used for different reasons. in the case of nocturne, its apocalyptic world is made much more threatening by the looming threat of being caught off-guard
smt iv and especially smt iv apocalypse are much less intimidating because of their map-based encounters
it's common to see people disparaging nocturne for its ability to "spontaneously kill you for being unlucky", as opposed to smt iv, which places all of its enemy encounters visibly on the map
random encounters and map encounters are deliberate design choices used for different reasons. in the case of nocturne, its apocalyptic world is made much more threatening by the looming threat of being caught off-guard
smt iv and especially smt iv apocalypse are much less intimidating because of their map-based encounters
it wanted to do something different. the flashlight mod (now permanent in the bfg edition) sacrifices a lot of the original atmosphere
you either hold a flashlight and investigate areas more thoroughly, or you hold a gun and prepare yourself for sudden attackers
it's intentional and it was controversial upon release
you either hold a flashlight and investigate areas more thoroughly, or you hold a gun and prepare yourself for sudden attackers
it's intentional and it was controversial upon release
the girls featured in this weren't all of age. so i guess top heavy studios could say th
this should not be hard to revisit after playing the remake on the basis that it is a completely different game with a control scheme that serves an entirely different purpose
moving and shooting was not a new concept in any way, shape or form by the time re4 was released. it was a deliberate design choice and an intentional handicap
moving and shooting was not a new concept in any way, shape or form by the time re4 was released. it was a deliberate design choice and an intentional handicap
"tactics vs fully controllable party" is an argument as old as time itself. in short, tactics are better both for gameplay and narrative reasons
persona 3 fes was designed around having ai commands. as the story progresses, you get more specific commands better suited for the difficulty ramps. it symbolizes the protagonist growing as a leader and sees becoming closer
regardless of preference, however, suggesting that this game aged poorly because of an experimental and very deliberate (not to mention controversial) design choice is foolish
persona 3 fes was designed around having ai commands. as the story progresses, you get more specific commands better suited for the difficulty ramps. it symbolizes the protagonist growing as a leader and sees becoming closer
regardless of preference, however, suggesting that this game aged poorly because of an experimental and very deliberate (not to mention controversial) design choice is foolish
52 Comments
tomb raider is a series i still need to give a proper and thorough shot. ironically the reason why i didn't as a kid was because i wasn't dismissive towards this argument back then
Lmao, isnt your battletoads point kinda proof of the opposite of what youre trying to say? Am i supposed to like the difficulty in these games that was only there to suck quarters from you? Like, that is a design philosophy that we have moved away from, and were better off for it. Bizarre example imo.
The most arrogant thing about the term "Aged poorly" is that it implies that games were never criticized when they originally came out, And John Q zoomer is now here to elevate the medium. It's a very poor excuse for people to not properly articulate themselves.
Ditto for Super Mario 64. "The camera was bad to begin with because there was no standard for a good camera" Yeah! Youre right we have much more experience with 3D game design now, cameras are smoother and even phase through walls so as not to make it jarring. How is it then innacurate to say that many early 3D games have aged poorly in this aspect?
Doom3 are we still doing in the year of our lord 2023 the "its intentional therefore you cant have a problem with it"? Yeah the intention was for you to have to weigh up your capacity to see with your ability to defend yourself to create a horror tone. That doesnt mean it worked! Or was good and not dumb. And it doesnt make Doom3 any less the bastard child of the franchise that tried way too hard to be system shock
Oddly enough Xenogears helped to reinforce this take for me. The whole time I was playing Xenogears I was thinking "why is this game such a slow and clunky piece of dogshit? oh right it's an old PS1 game, guess I gotta get used to it. Gotta adapt to the less desirable quicks of that era."
Then I started to think about the hundreds of games I had played that released before Xenogears that are 10x more comfortable to play and feel less "antiquated". I started to come to a realization...
Wait....
holdup...........
maybe, just maybe...!
Xenogears' text speed was made to cater to people who attend Derek Zoolander's Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good, MEANING it was dogshit ON RELEASE. Within its own era.
Thank you Tetsuya Takahashi for helping me reach this epiphany. I now see video games in a different light and I owe it all to you!
Then I started to think about the hundreds of games I had played that released before Xenogears that are 10x more comfortable to play and feel less "antiquated". I started to come to a realization...
Wait....
holdup...........
maybe, just maybe...!
Xenogears' text speed was made to cater to people who attend Derek Zoolander's Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good, MEANING it was dogshit ON RELEASE. Within its own era.
Thank you Tetsuya Takahashi for helping me reach this epiphany. I now see video games in a different light and I owe it all to you!
@toasterninja
amen
@lorddarias
your misstep here is in thinking i mean all of these examples in a positive way. battletoads didn't age poorly because it was designed to be a dickhead as soon as it was put on shelves. golden axe didn't age poorly because it always sucked it didn't need to age for that to be apparent. mario 64 didn't age because its camera situation was never ideal. doom 3 was always controversial. etc.
just because something was done back then doesn't mean it was a good idea then or now. not everything here is in favor of old games and not every point here is disparaging old games either
the entire point is that games don't age. if it worked back then, it should work now. if it didn't work, well, then it didn't work
@killbutt
absolute godpost
amen
@lorddarias
your misstep here is in thinking i mean all of these examples in a positive way. battletoads didn't age poorly because it was designed to be a dickhead as soon as it was put on shelves. golden axe didn't age poorly because it always sucked it didn't need to age for that to be apparent. mario 64 didn't age because its camera situation was never ideal. doom 3 was always controversial. etc.
just because something was done back then doesn't mean it was a good idea then or now. not everything here is in favor of old games and not every point here is disparaging old games either
the entire point is that games don't age. if it worked back then, it should work now. if it didn't work, well, then it didn't work
@killbutt
absolute godpost
Mario64 aged porrly cause we have simply evolved past the need for his disgusting aura... it permeates my bing... corrupted and turning me into something I fear.. The hate, the loathing... dear god, what I have become! This Mario Hate I have allowed to fester within me is only creating an eternal spiral of despair that will result in the evil me taking over. I have to take control! I will allow this no longer! I DO love Mario and I will bask in the holy waters to baptize myself and be reborn again without sin.
"if it worked back then it should work now, if it didnt then it wouldnt". This is legitimately insane and I dont think well ever reach any kind of agreement if you genuinely believe this
it's not that complicated a thought process
@snigglegros
true!
@lorddarias
you are likening game design to actual hardware. my toaster working right now doesn't mean it's going to function tomorrow, but games are subjectively designed. these are not the same things at all
speaking of things that are entertainment-based and entirely subjective, does music age to you too? is something composed by mozart innately unlistenable because we have our lord and savior ed sheeran in the year 2023? i don't think so - personally i think the latter sucks really bad, but the pop consensus would certainly disagree
true!
@lorddarias
you are likening game design to actual hardware. my toaster working right now doesn't mean it's going to function tomorrow, but games are subjectively designed. these are not the same things at all
speaking of things that are entertainment-based and entirely subjective, does music age to you too? is something composed by mozart innately unlistenable because we have our lord and savior ed sheeran in the year 2023? i don't think so - personally i think the latter sucks really bad, but the pop consensus would certainly disagree
i do think mozart is unlistenable tbh
i fucking KNEW you'd bolt in here the MOMENT i mentioned classical music
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
OH IM SCARY
SO IM SCARY
ALL THAT I SEE
NOW IM SCARY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYY
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
OH IM SCARY
SO IM SCARY
ALL THAT I SEE
NOW IM SCARY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYYYY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYYYY
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
OH IM SCARY
SO IM SCARY
ALL THAT I SEE
NOW IM SCARY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYY
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
amen amen gospel amen
OH IM SCARY
SO IM SCARY
ALL THAT I SEE
NOW IM SCARY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYYYY
ALL IS FANTASYYYYYYYY
when you talk about the aiming control changes in metroid prime are you talking about something they added in the new remaster? haven't played either version yet so idk how it's supposed to control. good list btw i agree with what you said about P3 👍
@slimemasterzero
both prime trilogy on the wii and the new remaster allow you to play it like a fps, yes
both prime trilogy on the wii and the new remaster allow you to play it like a fps, yes
to add, prime on gamecube has pretty tanky controls
intriguing
classical music goes extremely hard, some of it will get me going like any of the best modern rage beats.
clair de lune https://tenor.com/view/the-goat-black-guy-gif-17915341
dis a good list now that ive read it all, i likey.
mfers be like "games don't age" and then you show them a game that was definitely crazy when it released but is mid now and they ALWAYS scramble to "TH-THEY THOUGHT IT A PROBLEM BACK THEN TOO!!!"
Yeah I'm sure the original final fantasy is still a 10/10 one of the best RPGs ever made
Yeah I'm sure the original final fantasy is still a 10/10 one of the best RPGs ever made
Yeah let's see you hop on the original Xanadu, since games can't age it'll be one of the best you ever played right
I feel like most of these are not ACTUALLY an argument against games aging in the first place? Half of these feel like "It was like X back then, too!" without really any receipts or actual showing of that.
Also the Battletoads example, like. Wouldn't making a design decision based on the time it was made (to be an arcade sucker) that gets disliked be a pretty defitional "Was made that way due to its time, is disliked for that even more now" AKA aging argument?
You could argue Battletoads is "oh it was always bad" but most contemporary reviews said that the quarter-sucking difficulty was a positive ("brilliantly designed to allow you to get just a little bit further each time you play, and give experts the potential to hone their skills and rack up enormous amount of bonus points.", as one reviewer of the time put it for example), so the opinions definitely changed on the design as time went on.
Also the Battletoads example, like. Wouldn't making a design decision based on the time it was made (to be an arcade sucker) that gets disliked be a pretty defitional "Was made that way due to its time, is disliked for that even more now" AKA aging argument?
You could argue Battletoads is "oh it was always bad" but most contemporary reviews said that the quarter-sucking difficulty was a positive ("brilliantly designed to allow you to get just a little bit further each time you play, and give experts the potential to hone their skills and rack up enormous amount of bonus points.", as one reviewer of the time put it for example), so the opinions definitely changed on the design as time went on.
@pkmudkipz
having finished the original final fantasy i can certainly tell you that it's perfectly fine and playable to this day and no amount of fake text stuttering changes that. is the original shock value novelty worn off? yeah, maybe so. i'm not gonna lie to you and say the nes graphics are blowing me away because i'm used to seeing atari 2600 games. but is the game's design still competent? is the exploration still fun? is it not too terribly cryptic despite old games getting a reputation for having no sense of direction? yes, yes - and yes!
@frozenroy
there aren't "receipts" for a lot of the examples because you can just as easily look these things up or play them yourself to see what i mean. take american mcgee's alice for example: do i really need to explain to anyone why this game wasn't ever the gold standard for 3d platforming? it was released in december of 2000. there were already plenty of well-made 3d platformers with more fluid controls in every regard. same thing applies for golden axe - it's a shitty beat-em-up that came out at a time when there were already better options in the genre
citing critic reviews of the time for battletoads is also completely disingenuous. battletoads was originally released in an era when bad critical reviews were virtually unheard of. the early days of gaming journalism were extremely lax and deliberately so. for example, mario is missing received nothing but 6/10s and 7/10s in egm despite just about every consumer under the sun hating that game the second it was released. don't even get me started on the gamespot incident over kane & lynch where the now-founder of giantbomb got fired over pointing out that the game sucked
you know what most players' experience was with battletoads? they booted it up, they had fun for about 15 minutes and then they game-overed on the speeder bikes because of how absurdly fast the walls come up. this was always a dickheaded design choice and it has nothing to do with how the quality of game design is or was perceived. it was a scam. there was no internet to look these things up in advance and journalism was dishonest so there wasn't much anyone could do about it
if you'd like to see why this isn't an issue of game design but rather financial greed, then check out the japanese version of battletoads - it's a much fairer game. it's not like opinions on what made game design good were what changed it for westerners. sure you could argue that the financial decisions "didn't age well" for the general public, but considering there's already a fairer version released at the same time, it's clear that developers were fully aware of what was and wasn't bullshit. it's not like they didn't know better
while i'm on this tangent i may as well also bring up the fact that technological advancements themselves have made certain games much less accessible, but i don't think that means anything in regard to the actual intent behind a game's design. mike tyson's punch out, for example, is extremely difficult to play on modern displays due to a slight difference in input lag. that said, you can still play this game in its originally intended conditions and it "holds up" just as well as it did before
having finished the original final fantasy i can certainly tell you that it's perfectly fine and playable to this day and no amount of fake text stuttering changes that. is the original shock value novelty worn off? yeah, maybe so. i'm not gonna lie to you and say the nes graphics are blowing me away because i'm used to seeing atari 2600 games. but is the game's design still competent? is the exploration still fun? is it not too terribly cryptic despite old games getting a reputation for having no sense of direction? yes, yes - and yes!
@frozenroy
there aren't "receipts" for a lot of the examples because you can just as easily look these things up or play them yourself to see what i mean. take american mcgee's alice for example: do i really need to explain to anyone why this game wasn't ever the gold standard for 3d platforming? it was released in december of 2000. there were already plenty of well-made 3d platformers with more fluid controls in every regard. same thing applies for golden axe - it's a shitty beat-em-up that came out at a time when there were already better options in the genre
citing critic reviews of the time for battletoads is also completely disingenuous. battletoads was originally released in an era when bad critical reviews were virtually unheard of. the early days of gaming journalism were extremely lax and deliberately so. for example, mario is missing received nothing but 6/10s and 7/10s in egm despite just about every consumer under the sun hating that game the second it was released. don't even get me started on the gamespot incident over kane & lynch where the now-founder of giantbomb got fired over pointing out that the game sucked
you know what most players' experience was with battletoads? they booted it up, they had fun for about 15 minutes and then they game-overed on the speeder bikes because of how absurdly fast the walls come up. this was always a dickheaded design choice and it has nothing to do with how the quality of game design is or was perceived. it was a scam. there was no internet to look these things up in advance and journalism was dishonest so there wasn't much anyone could do about it
if you'd like to see why this isn't an issue of game design but rather financial greed, then check out the japanese version of battletoads - it's a much fairer game. it's not like opinions on what made game design good were what changed it for westerners. sure you could argue that the financial decisions "didn't age well" for the general public, but considering there's already a fairer version released at the same time, it's clear that developers were fully aware of what was and wasn't bullshit. it's not like they didn't know better
while i'm on this tangent i may as well also bring up the fact that technological advancements themselves have made certain games much less accessible, but i don't think that means anything in regard to the actual intent behind a game's design. mike tyson's punch out, for example, is extremely difficult to play on modern displays due to a slight difference in input lag. that said, you can still play this game in its originally intended conditions and it "holds up" just as well as it did before
I feel like saying something aged well or aged poorly is mostly reflecting on everything outside the game instead of the game itself. Like the point of the statement is to show how a game's perception by the public has changed due to changing tastes, advancements in the artform, etc. Really the most objectionable part of it is how the argument is framed, putting the onus on the game itself rather than the culture surrounding it. A better way to phrase it I think would be like "We have moved on" or like "This game has since been surpassed". Because most of the arguments for games aging poorly rely on comparison to other similar games that have come out since.
I think it's funny only one person managed to bring forth any semblance of an argument while the others were being either reductive or doing ad hominems
@ninjabunny
i fully agree that "aging" is perceived in relation to audience reception and taste. my main issue there is that i feel the mainstream-appealed public should not cockily decide what makes a game valid or invalid
the simple fact is that gaming started off as a much more niche hobby than it is today. what appealed to an audience then obviously will not necessarily appeal to everyone now. i think that's fine, but i liken claiming a game is "aged" because it doesn't click with "modern game design sensibilities" (many of which i'd say are condescending steps backward for the medium as a whole) to saying a game is "charming" without further elaboration. they're both vague statements, but the latter doesn't bother me because it's just a loose compliment. to call something aged is more along the lines of stating that it's invalid, and there are far better, more insightful ways to convey gripes than to just brush it off as something that should never be done again. especially when this is a claim that's often applied to mechanics and design choices that are absolutely deliberate and used for justified reasons (see my nocturne note on random encounters)
all things considered, i think saying "we've moved on" or "this game has been surpassed" is exactly the same as claiming a game is aged. i think they're all shallow and lazy points
i fully agree that "aging" is perceived in relation to audience reception and taste. my main issue there is that i feel the mainstream-appealed public should not cockily decide what makes a game valid or invalid
the simple fact is that gaming started off as a much more niche hobby than it is today. what appealed to an audience then obviously will not necessarily appeal to everyone now. i think that's fine, but i liken claiming a game is "aged" because it doesn't click with "modern game design sensibilities" (many of which i'd say are condescending steps backward for the medium as a whole) to saying a game is "charming" without further elaboration. they're both vague statements, but the latter doesn't bother me because it's just a loose compliment. to call something aged is more along the lines of stating that it's invalid, and there are far better, more insightful ways to convey gripes than to just brush it off as something that should never be done again. especially when this is a claim that's often applied to mechanics and design choices that are absolutely deliberate and used for justified reasons (see my nocturne note on random encounters)
all things considered, i think saying "we've moved on" or "this game has been surpassed" is exactly the same as claiming a game is aged. i think they're all shallow and lazy points
gruel
1 year ago